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RE: Developing Vision and Style

Mark Layne — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:48:52 GMT

I suspect many artists vision is developed by what sells best. One very successful 'Fine Art Photographer" whom I know, like and respect admitted to me that he only makes a photograph he feels will sell. That said he has developed a style I adore.

I have a criterion by which I judge any art. Can I hang that thing and live with it for an extended period. I find quite a lot of photography is unpleasant or 'unliveable.'

This of course puts me in the category of the artistically illiterate, but I'll survive. I have no dificulty with the work of Howard Bond, Bruce Barnbaum,Craig Richards,Harold Merklinger,Jorge Gasteazaro,Sandy King and others.

But there is some disturbing stuff out there getting kudos from the cogniscenti.

Oh well, I better go walk the dog before I upset anyone

Mark

RE: Developing Vision and Style

roteague — Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:23:02 GMT

I finished reading the other book - yeah, reading is a dangerous thing. :hehe: But, I've started reading another book by David Ward (he was also in the book that started this thread), called "Landscape Within: Insights and Inspiration for Photographers". David Ward is one of the few photographers, who can both take excellent pictures, but write as well.

In this book, David writes:

"The power of the photographer is seen as the depiction of 'truth' in direct opposition to the other visual arts where manipulation or transformation of reality by the artist is thought essential in order to grant an image the status of art."

I wonder if sometimes we forget that there is a physical connection with our subject. Or perhaps we do, at least subconciously. After all, traditional photography is about the physical connection we all experience; a connection that is lost in the translation of photography through a sensor.

To some people, I guess this doesn't matter, as long as the image is pleasing, but it is vital to those of us who choose to practice our traditional methods. Camera makers now relegate an element of creativity by assigning image-making over to a electronics filled camera. As David later writes:

What was also at stake, and still is to some extent, was a matter of pride in craft, a pride in manual dexterity and our ability to create something magical from unprepossessing materials.

Just a few things to think about....

RE: Developing Vision and Style

Steve Nicholls — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 04:22:17 GMT

[quote][b]roteague (1/13/2008)[/b][hr]I guess since I started the thread, I should at least put in my thoughts as well.

I see Vision and Style as two very different things. Vision is the "why", while Style is the "how".A man without vision is like a ship lost at see, bouncing to and fro with the waves. Without the "why" you can never accomplishthe "how".Hopefully, my vision will never change, although my style may.

If everyone will indulge me, my Vision is to share the glory that I see in God's creation with others, in a way that pleasing, in a way that brings a sense of relief from our hectic, fast paced world, even if only for a moment.

The problem is how to bring the vision to fruition. Rich alluded to this earlier when he wrote "I want to work with the subject and bring out what I want to record and share". There is a definite order in the universe, the way the sun and the sky, the trees and the clouds, the flowers, the rocks and the hills and valleys flow into one another, how they interact. The problem is trying to get past our own mental roadblocks that keeps us from seeing this order.At present, my style seems to be one of looking for that one elusive moment in time, when the order becomes apparent. For example:

[img]http://www.visionlandscapes.com/Images/HI5074A.jpg[/img]

Could this image have succeeded, if it wasn't for the waves crashing at just the right, opportune moment? I think not. They are what connects the sky, with the wet sand in the foreground, but they also connect the viewer to a very specific moment in time.

I also have to realize, although I often forget, that not everyone cares to see these things. Like Jorge, I too get bored, not with my vision orstyle, but with location.I see beauty in the ocean, but I also see it in the mountains or in the desert. Perhaps, my favorite location in the world, at this present time, is the Western MacDonnell range inAustralia's great Northern Territory - the Australian Outback is vibrant and alive, for those who seek it.[/quote]

I have struggled all of my photographic life to have style but have happily stopped fighting. Vision on the other hand is a component of all photographic endeavour that if missing the image has the potential just to be a snapshot. Lot's of mine are at times snapshots.

When Robert and I went to the Western MacDonnell range he was shooting colour and I was shooting black and white. The Australian outback is not a B&W location. I know that, I live here. My vision could not be realised there with the technical restrictions I had imposed on myself. Photographically I don't see in colour. The outback is a wonderful location for a colour photographer but, in B&W blue sky [no clouds] red earth and green grey foliage equates to a [for me] very restricted vision. Vision isn't just technical, in fact it is only a minute part of the process but it does form a platform to build on. I'm not talking about seeing as vision either. It certainly can be part of the whole but vision for me is the imapact, approach and relationship I develop either instantly or over many years with a location or project. When I produce a corporate video production for a company I can see the finished product even before I commit to any form of writing or filming. I think to some degree I apply some of that to the approach I have to the GG

Style and Vision are probably meant to go hand in hand but in my photographic life they are a bit like teenagers that have had a lover's tiff.

RE: Developing Vision and Style

Mark Layne — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:18:26 GMT

About a year and a half ago I subjected some prints to a 'critique' by a famous photographer. Sitting next to me was another famous photographer who had earlier admired several of my prints. I watched in amusement as the 'critiquer' decimated my prints while the other guy shook his head. I learnt a lot from that session.

Mark

RE: Developing Vision and Style

Jorge Gasteazoro — Sun, 13 Jan 2008 16:02:21 GMT

Robert beat me to it. I was going to post that to me "vision" is the reason to take the picture. "Style" is what comes out of the darkroom. You might have envisioned something when you took the shot, but you might take a 180º turn in the darkroom and produce something totally different.

RE: Developing Vision and Style

roteague — Sun, 13 Jan 2008 13:23:40 GMT

I guess since I started the thread, I should at least put in my thoughts as well.

I see Vision and Style as two very different things. Vision is the "why", while Style is the "how". A man without vision is like a ship lost at see, bouncing to and fro with the waves. Without the "why" you can never accomplish the "how". Hopefully, my vision will never change, although my style may.

If everyone will indulge me, my Vision is to share the glory that I see in God's creation with others, in a way that pleasing, in a way that brings a sense of relief from our hectic, fast paced world, even if only for a moment.

The problem is how to bring the vision to fruition. Rich alluded to this earlier when he wrote "I want to work with the subject and bring out what I want to record and share". There is a definite order in the universe, the way the sun and the sky, the trees and the clouds, the flowers, the rocks and the hills and valleys flow into one another, how they interact. The problem is trying to get past our own mental roadblocks that keeps us from seeing this order. At present, my style seems to be one of looking for that one elusive moment in time, when the order becomes apparent. For example:

[img]http://www.visionlandscapes.com/Images/HI5074A.jpg[/img]

Could this image have succeeded, if it wasn't for the waves crashing at just the right, opportune moment? I think not. They are what connects the sky, with the wet sand in the foreground, but they also connect the viewer to a very specific moment in time.

I also have to realize, although I often forget, that not everyone cares to see these things. Like Jorge, I too get bored, not with my vision or style, but with location. I see beauty in the ocean, but I also see it in the mountains or in the desert. Perhaps, my favorite location in the world, at this present time, is the Western MacDonnell range in Australia's great Northern Territory - the Australian Outback is vibrant and alive, for those who seek it.

RE: Developing Vision and Style

Craig Griffiths — Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:44:42 GMT

I guess I am a little confused about vision and style. To put this in perspective I am an amateur who is not trying to please the masses, in fact I am ecstatic if my wife likes what I have done. I also have to admit that I am my harshest critic.

I see vision as a way of being able to sort out what is worth photographing, of anything, when confronted with a scene. This could also the ability to find appropriate subject matter for a theme or project I want to work on, or it could be identifying how I would like a final print to appear prior to releasing the shutter. Gary and Thomas have said this much better than I have.

As far as style is concerned I see it as a recognisable attribute within images. This could be subject related, related to the way prints are made, or the way prints are presented. Is it a good thing? I am not sure.

Jorge has said "My take is this, I don't want my photographs to look like anybody's, and I don't want to keep doing the same thing over and over...I am bored to death with my current pictures, so I am experimenting in other directions." If having a style results in this then it is definately not a good thing in my opinion. However I would be interested in hearing if a photographer is limited to a single style at any point in time.

Just the thoughts of an amateur who is bored with his current style of over the couch prints, both colour and black and white ( you know the ones, technically ok, but with no message), and would love to have the vision to find the image in the crap I have been taking lately (lol).

RE: Developing Vision and Style

Jorge Gasteazoro — Sun, 13 Jan 2008 00:38:34 GMT

I am not surprised you are misunderstood by Juried art shows. You have to think that their reason for existence is to sell over the couch art, and whatever is in vogue at the time is what gets the ohhhs and aahhhs.... In the 90s anybody doing Michael Kenna like stuff would get accepted, presently if you make it big and in color or if it is ordinary looking then it gets the nod....

My take is this, I don't want my photographs to look like anybody's, and I don't want to keep doing the same thing over and over...I am bored to death with my current pictures, so I am experimenting in other directions. I have found, one, that I am learning to do things I never tired before and two, that I am less concerned about getting a winner. Photography is starting to be fun again.... :)

So in that sense I agree with you that we need to please ourselves first.....but not just for ourselves.

RE: Developing Vision and Style

naturephoto1 — Sat, 12 Jan 2008 16:54:54 GMT

[quote][b]Jorge Gasteazoro (1/11/2008)[/b][hr]My question is: Is developing a style a good thing? The more I think about it I beleive it is not.

I think developing a style is an indication of staganation. Yes, an easily recognizable style might mean acceptance by the public. And after all as an artist no work of art is complete without a viewer. But it forces the artist to get comfortable doing just one thing and not taking risks. Without risk there is no growth IMO.[/quote]

Hi Jorge,

That is how I got myself in trouble with some juries for some Art Shows that I have juried into. The jurors who viewed my slides felt that I had no style. They felt that I was a learning photographer who submitted work that had been done for a photography class. They did not realize that I was in fact trying to demonstrate the breathe of my knowledge and capabilities in photographing grand and intimate landscape as well as wildlife. When in fact, I was trying to demonstrate that I was a more complete nature photographer.

I believe that we as photographers should work to please ourselves and use what ever is presented to us to share what we see with others. That would be vision. I do not always want my images to look the same, I want to work with the subject and bring out what I want to record and share. If that is style so be it. But, I would look at it as more in terms of vision.

Rich

RE: Developing Vision and Style

eric rose — Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:26:37 GMT

For me vision and style are intermingled. My vision of the world and how I fit in was probably set in my early years. Sure things have happened to me over the years to change how I feel about certain things, but my core values have remained unchanged. Some concepts such as The Golden Rule and the appreciation of life are very dear to me. Sometimes I go on a rampage decrying the suffering of others, the greed of man etc and my photos will reflect what I am feeling. This reflection and how it manifests itself in photographic form is where the style comes in. I will use whatever style fits my current vision which in turn is guided by my personal values.

I must say that I have never tapped into a "style" that is meant to endear my work to a specific group just to make sales. I don't care about the money. I don't let monetary concerns guide and dictate what style I use. I suppose some smart photographers have done studies and found that a certain target market is looking for serene simple images because their lives are full of ciaos. They produce what the market "wants" and they become famous. Others will tap into the "treehugger" market or maybe those that are seeking some sort of mystical spiritual growth.

Ultimately their style will become out of fashion and they will have to search for another cash cow. Since these photographic whores are producing images with no soul, at least none from within themselves, no vision is transmitted therefore no emotional energy is invested in nor derived from their creations.

RE: Developing Vision and Style

Jorge Gasteazoro — Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:58:19 GMT

My question is: Is developing a style a good thing? The more I think about it I beleive it is not.

I think developing a style is an indication of staganation. Yes, an easily recognizable style might mean acceptance by the public. And after all as an artist no work of art is complete without a viewer. But it forces the artist to get comfortable doing just one thing and not taking risks. Without risk there is no growth IMO.

RE: Developing Vision and Style

glbeas — Sun, 06 Jan 2008 07:08:22 GMT

I think Jorge is very on point. For me what gets the best results is to look for what 'resonates' with me in some fashion then seek to separate that from the debris surrounding it. The simplest forms tended to be the strongest. Once I started learning to compose with a wide angle lens I found I needed to do the same thing over the bigger mess of details and find a way to subjugate them to the idea that I was finding in the image. Not exactly an easy task.

Lately I've been lacking inspiration, so I'll have to wait and see what I can learn to do next.

RE: Developing Vision and Style

Bertilsson — Sun, 06 Jan 2008 05:39:13 GMT

For me it's simple. I like it that way.

Style - will develop if you work hard. It is important to try to stay away from looking too much at other photographers' work. I just trust that some day when I grow up as a photographer, I will know what I like to photograph and how I like to photograph.
Vision - it's like I have developed this frame of reference. When I hold my camera, I either 'feel' the scene or I don't. If I'm not feeling it, I know not to click the shutter.

Maybe this is overly simplified, but it's starting to work for me. For me, and that does not equal selling lots of prints. I only sell a few here and there.
If I had to sell my prints for a living, I would likely have a different approach.

- Thomas

RE: Developing Vision and Style

PhotoBob — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:41:59 GMT

I currently have an article & photos out in Visions art & photography magazine that deals with changing photographic perspective, perhaps this might be a part of vision and/or style.
Suffice it to see, this is probably quite individualistic and may mean different things to different people.

RE: Developing Vision and Style

roteague — Sun, 30 Dec 2007 11:39:56 GMT

I wonder if sometimes we don't mix Vision and Style together, when really they should be separate. A quote from the book I just read this morning, by Charlie Waite - considered the dean of nature photographers in the UK:

[quote]Our vision should dictate our style and the entire image-making process. If the latter does not reflect the former then our work will seem hollow and without meaning. There will be a dislocation between intention, execution and outcome; the image will be found wanting.[/quote]

I'll expand on this a bit later, but for now would enjoy hearing everyone's thoughts on the subject.

RE: Developing Vision and Style

Eirik Berger — Sat, 29 Dec 2007 16:05:32 GMT

Aha, the two a*** refugees... :D

I will post something here I guess, but I will need better time.

RE: Developing Vision and Style

kjsphoto — Sat, 29 Dec 2007 14:47:39 GMT

I have to say I agree with it.

The only thing is about style and vision. In my mind they are two separate things entirely and you can have one without the other. Vision is a way you see and style is something you gain over years or practicing your art form. Almost like a signature, that when one see a piece they will be able to say, hey that is a, name the artists.

The problem in photography is that everyone wants to copy what is selling, and does not spending enough time developing their own style and to look at their inner self to see their own visions.

lets take Kenna for example, I know many photographers that outright copy the look and feel of this work and calls it their own. I think they believe that since Kenna is the best selling photographer, from what I understand, they believe that by copying what he does they can make a dime off his back.

How is that creating your own style or following your own vision?

Photographers must start to see within themselves in order to develop their own style. vision is something you either have or you don't as it is a way you see things through your own eyes, not others.

Anyway that is how I see it.

RE: Developing Vision and Style

Jorge Gasteazoro — Sat, 29 Dec 2007 10:59:43 GMT

LOL...well, this is the kind of response for which I get banned or start pissing matches in other sites. So guys, this is just my opinion... :)

I have not read the book so I am unable to comment on how the authors have developed their ides. But this is exactly the kind of thing that I feel makes photographers look like they are trying too hard at being "artists".

Asking what does your vision mean to you? Is like asking what dooe your right arm mean to you? I believe that "vision" is something you either have or you don't. That is a part of your make up and is more instictive than rationalized.
Of course, it is possible to refine that vision through practice and seeing how others have dealt with similar subjects, but to try to give it meaning is like trying to give meaning to my lungs.. :)

Heck, we all know of one photographer who not only thinks he has great vision, but actually has a workshop that teaches people vision.....yet IMO 90% of his photographs are boring.

I think better questions would be to ask what is it that inspires you to photograph? If this is going to be a book about self introspection, then we should ask ourselves: Why do we see the world in the manner in which we see it? WHat is so special about our vision that should attract the attention of a viewer?

IMO, these are the important questions with which I have been wrestling for the past two years. Furthermore, does obtaining a style that results from a particular photographer's vision mean that said photographer has stop growing in his art?

I mention style because I think it is more pertinent to the second question. Does it really matter how you describe your vision? I think not, it is like asking how do you describe your nose? If style is a product of vision, then the more self introspective question is to ask how do you define your style? More stressing is the question: Once you found a style, do you plan to continue making the same photographs for the next 20 years?

I had a lot of time to think about this after an illness and I don't mind saying that not only did I not want to make photographs, I almost quit photography all together. The answer to this was what women have known for centuries, the cure for depression is shopping! So I went and bought a new camera...LOL..... No, just kidding!

In reality what brought back my enthusiasm for photography was realizing that as photographers we have gotten into a rut. We blindly follow rules imposed to us by the gallery and art world and we don't stop and take the time to think about them. We worship the negative as if it was a sacred thing instead of just an intermediate step to create art. We bow to galleries and empower them to dictate our future, they want editions, here we go and do editions, they want minimalistic photography, lets go buy a Kenna book and copy him. We are told we need exposure and here we go and spend money on ads. Bottom line, THERE ARE NO RULES, do what you love and let the viewer judge your efforts. :)

Developing Vision and Style

roteague — Fri, 28 Dec 2007 15:49:56 GMT

I just picked up a new book "Developing vision & Style: A Landscape Photography Masterclass" by Joe Cornish, Charlie Waite and David Ward - all well known UK landscape photographers.

In this book two of the questions asked are:

What does vision mean to you?
How would you describe your vision?

I'm going to try to answer this question over the coming week as I read though the book. I just thought everyone might enjoy thinking about these questions as well.